(link to podcast)

0:00:18.2 Chris Ronan: Hello everyone. Welcome to Inside Geocaching HQ. It is our podcast at HQ in Seattle. I am Chris Ronan, AKA Rock Chalk, one of the HQ lackeys. And here in Seattle it is still beautiful, sunny, summer weather time, lots of geocaching happening. I’m gonna be heading out into the mountains this weekend because you never know when that fall weather, that wintry weather that will come soon after that you’ve probably heard about how it can be here in Seattle when the fall in the wet in the winter hits. It can be dreary and drizzly and rainy and all that stuff. And I’m gonna get out into the mountains while I still have a chance, because you never know when this beautiful Seattle summer is going to drift off into the next season. So anyway, to the topic at hand. Today we are talking about challenge caches. HQ recently announced a few updates to the challenge cache guidelines, and I have a conversation to share with Jessie Taylor about that. Jessie is the head of community at HQ. Her username is jtcoffee. She is an avid geocacher to say the very least. She’s a challenge cache owner and a finder, and she was part of the process related to this guideline update. We chatted about the prelude to the update and then how the process played out and the reasoning behind each point of the guideline update. So here is me and Jessie talking about challenge caches.

0:02:02.8 Chris Ronan: Jessie is here and Jessie has had a lot of involvement in the recent challenge cache guideline updates. And before we get into it, Jessie, because it’s been a while since you’ve done the HQ podcast And you have had a new role since you were last on the HQ podcast here at HQ. So let’s start by just, what is your role at HQ and what is your day-to-day like? For people that aren’t aware.

0:02:28.0 Jessie Taylor: I think the last time I was on the podcast, you introduced me as the Taylor Swift of Geocaching, which is, it’s not anymore. Now I’m the head of community at HQ.

0:02:36.5 Chris Ronan: Did I? That doesn’t sound like something I would do but I’m sure I did if you remember it.

0:02:40.6 Jessie Taylor: It was an episode with mountain Bike John Stanley, and he was the George Clooney of Geocaching.

0:02:44.5 Chris Ronan: That’s right. I said that.

0:02:46.1 Jessie Taylor: You did. And I was the Taylor Swift of Geocaching, which I then subsequently made my Halloween costume. I call back to that. I was the Taylor Swift of caching or geocaching for Halloween last year. All as a… And tip my hat to that ’cause that was pretty funny.

0:03:01.4 Chris Ronan: Well, and you are a huge Taylor Swift fan. You recently put out a series of caches inspired by Taylor Swift.

0:03:09.3 Jessie Taylor: I did. Yeah.

0:03:10.2 Chris Ronan: And as a Kansas City Chiefs fan myself, I am just by association a fan of Taylor Swift.

0:03:18.0 Jessie Taylor: That’s right.

0:03:18.6 Chris Ronan: So we could probably spend an hour talking about Taylor Swift.

0:03:22.4 Jessie Taylor: Probably could. Yeah.

0:03:23.2 Chris Ronan: But we’ll stick to challenge cache. But anyway, back to, you were trying to explain what you do at HQ. Sorry to sidetrack you there.

0:03:31.1 Jessie Taylor: That’s always the best riffs. I I love a riff. I am the head of community here at Geocaching HQ, which means my teams focus on all things geocaching and geocachers, the game, the guidelines, the people who play it, the people who review it, the people who wanna have a big event, the people who would like to play, but they don’t quite know how, or they ride in in there little confused or they’re running into an issue. We support all of that.

0:03:56.8 Chris Ronan: You also help support the community volunteer reviewers and trying to find that balance every day, really, about when issues come to the forefront that players bring up or reviewers bring up and trying to find a win-win for everybody in some of those edge cases that happen with the guidelines and that sort of thing, right?

0:04:18.6 Jessie Taylor: Exactly. It’s one of the big things that we do on our team at HQ is support the reviewers because so many parts of the game touches something that a reviewer does. And one of the things I really learned, I’ve been a geocacher for a long, long time, but then coming into HQ and seeing the game from a different light, I didn’t really realize the position that a lot of reviewers kind of are in. They’re kind of in this messy middle place of being just kind of stuck in the middle of a lot of opinions. Their own opinions, cache owner opinions, our opinions, other just concerned onlooker opinions. And that’s a really tough place to be. And my empathy for them in that role really grew as part of working here and supporting them. And so that’s one of the big things that we do is really find the balance between the things that’ll make reviewer lives easier and players easier and all while fitting within equal fair guidelines.

0:05:18.4 Chris Ronan: Right. And challenge caches, which is the topic for today, is certainly something that is commonly seen in appeals and commonly a part of our conversations with reviewers. And so we have these guideline updates that we’ll kind of go over and talk about reasons for them and maybe some of the responses and all that. But first, I do want to kind of set the table here and say that both of us are pretty experienced geocachers and we both have found a lot of challenge caches. I know that you have hidden quite a few challenge caches. I have only hidden a few, so you have me beat by a mile there. But as such, you have experience on both sides of it, both as a player and on seeing some of the appeals that have come in. I’m curious, because I have my own answer to this question, but has kind of being at HQ and being involved in appeals and having conversations with reviewers, and at the same time you go to a lot of events. I know you host a lot of events, you hear from players about things. How has that impacted your view of a topic like challenge caches, which can be a somewhat contentious thing? It’s something that players love. A lot of reviewers, to be fair, a lot of reviewers enjoy them too. They do cause issues for reviewers. But as a player, did you have a different feeling about them than you do now? Or is it pretty much the same since you’ve…

0:06:53.3 Jessie Taylor: Such a good question. It’s hard to say. I have always, always been motivated by numbers. I realized… Like I started caching in a February, and then by the time it was April, just a few months later, it was starting to get springtime and I was caching more. And I remember I decided my friends and I would try to find 30 caches on April 30th, just because I really liked how those numbers lined up. And I really liked how that looked on my little box, on my page. And that was just, that was 14 years ago, two months in, and I’m already like, look at those matching numbers. I really like how that dark box looks. And that really snowballed me into a really stats focused player. And sometimes I aim, and that’s what really pulls me toward challenges. It’s just the kind of thing I like doing. I see a box and I like to check it. I like working on counties because I like to fill in my map. I like if the box is this color on this number on our stats page, it gets a little darker when the number’s a little bit bigger.

0:07:56.0 Jessie Taylor: I just am motivated by that. And I don’t know why it’s just true about me. And so even before I worked at HQ, numbers, challenges all motivated me. Challenges also motivated me because we live over here in Seattle in the land of abundance of caches. There’s so many events. There’s so many caches. There’s so many opportunities and places to go, the water, the mountains, the desert, the highways, the neighborhoods. I could work on this little challenge with this little thing or this and that and the other thing. And it can be overwhelming and hard to choose. I have a Saturday. What in the world am I going to do with myself? And so challenges really helped me focus and helped me decide of all these options, what should I do? I’ll work on this. And that really helped me not feel like I was missing out on other things. And it still does. And I find that when I build lists and going places, I am keeping in mind the challenges I’ve signed and I’m working towards or I find other cool challenges that are in the areas. And so that part in me hasn’t changed.

0:08:58.6 Jessie Taylor: That’s just part of who I am. And I love those. I never tire of signing another Jasmer challenge. Like I was motivated to loop my Jasmer four times a few years ago. And that’s not a publishable challenge. But the one loop of a Jasmer is. And I don’t mind signing a Jasmer challenge in all the places that I go because then I think again, I celebrate again that I achieved that. And that was a memorable achievement. I’m proud of it. I’m glad to talk about it. I love finding old caches and it just reminds me of the time that I did it. So that part’s not boring to me and it’s not silly because I’ve already signed it. In my mind, it’s just another celebration. So it’s very motivating. I think without my HQ perspective, I would have probably landed on the side of the people who are really upset and confused. And I don’t understand. I’d like to think that I would be curious as to why and I’d lead with a curious mindset of, gosh, I wonder. I don’t understand why the criteria about events has changed.

0:10:06.4 Jessie Taylor: There’s probably something I don’t know about that. From the perspective that my HQ time gives me is that balance of really understanding that hard place that reviewers are in. And the attribute update, which we’ll get to, really demonstrates that for me of this back and forth of, well, if this guideline is true, this other thing can’t be true. Well, how does that work? And all of the little pieces and all of the ripple effects that one thing changes and that they all have to balance. And in the end, they’re deciding whether or not something is publishable or not. And then when they’re left with only confusion, that’s really frustrating. And I can totally see that and understand that better now than when I was just a player.

0:10:52.6 Chris Ronan: I guess, first of all, this was a process to come to this point. And what prompted it? What do you remember about, again, it’s, I think, been a while, but what prompted this? And kind of what was the process like to get input from reviewers? And what else was considered?

0:11:09.7 Jessie Taylor: Yeah, it was a long process. It’s even hard to name a date. I was thinking, checks notes, how long ago was that? It’s hard to say because there wasn’t a real moment where we said, all right, it’s time, ’cause it’s a cumulative feeling and thing. Every year, we send multiple surveys to the reviewers to really understand their experience. What are the things that they’re running into? Are there any patterns that we can help either build something for or solve or answer? Or just what are the trends in their areas that they are experiencing? And then, of course, we have the daily appeals process where the community can reach out to HQ and we will provide a third opinion. And it’s not getting anybody in trouble. It’s just a third opinion. And then we have reviewers that email us, too. And we started noticing on our end, gosh, we’re getting a lot of emails about challenges. We kind of keep track of that. Okay, some emails about proximity, some emails about events. It’s really picking up here about the challenges. And then, Chris, you have the perspective of from the days of the pre-moratorium days.

0:12:16.8 Jessie Taylor: And you said, yeah, it’s starting to feel like that. It’s starting to feel like this is a snowball kind of rolling in a way that everybody’s upset about something. And there isn’t clarity. There’s only getting… The frustration is only building. And last time we kind of hit this critical mass, the moratorium was the answer. We’re not really at a moratorium place now, but maybe there’s a way what we can really sit back and assess and see what’s going on and really figuring out what’s happening. ‘Cause we’re hearing from the community how they’re feeling. I was unclear about, and we all were unclear about what the reviewers were really feeling. So we gathered together a working group. We do this sometimes with the reviewer community ’cause there’s over 300 volunteers. And so it’s hard to get everybody’s opinion. We do. But oftentimes when there’s a new project or a new tool that we build, we build a small working group. So we did that. And it was a geographically distributed group of reviewers that met together some different times. We did a kickoff meeting. We said, all right, from the HQ perspective, we would really like to hear from you all. What are reviewers experiencing right now with challenges?

0:13:29.5 Jessie Taylor: And so our task for you is find out from reviewers. What are the trends and what are the things? And if there’s a problem, does anybody have any solutions that they can really see that’s clear to them what we could do? Challenges came from the community and the goal is the balance between what the community wants and how to keep the caches being reviewed and published. Finding that balance. And so they agree that challenges are good and they hear from us to say that it’s important to us that challenges stay as a feature of geocaching. But how do we find a better win-win around? What are some of the things that we can help solve?

0:14:10.0 Chris Ronan: As you were talking, I can’t help but think again, and I’m a broken record with this, but the subjectivity of challenge caches, which is different than any other, I believe in almost any other aspect. I guess earth caches can have it a little bit. But most caches and the cache type that they fall under are pretty cut and dry in terms of what you can do or not do. And with challenge caches, because the community is so creative, it’s just not possible back in 2016, to have figured out what are people going to be doing in 2025 or in 2010 or whatever. And nor do we know today. I mean, this isn’t going to 100% fix anything. The idea is to make it a little better and make the unpleasantness that some of the reviewers were feeling ease up a little bit. And as you said, most reviewers think challenges have a place in the game. But at the same time, when we do that survey each year and ask, what are your biggest pain points right now? We saw how over the last four or five years, challenge caches just kept rising a little bit more towards the top.

0:15:21.7 Chris Ronan: And this last time they were at the top, much like they were before the moratorium. So that was part of what contributed to this too. But at the end of the day, the goal here is to come up with something that players can live with and they can still enjoy doing these and creating them and reviewers don’t look at them and say, another one of these. And so yeah, so I think let’s go through a few of these and talk about some of the thinking behind them.

0:15:48.3 Jessie Taylor: Talk about these updates.

0:15:49.4 Chris Ronan: Yeah, so the first one on our announcement was the not chosen size is no longer a publishable criteria.

0:15:58.4 Jessie Taylor: Yeah, that’s such a strange status. So every cache has a size associated with it. And you choose that as a cache owner when you are hiding the cache. It is editable. So if you hide a cache and it’s a micro container and then you realize that after you, maybe you had to replace it and you had a small with you, you can edit it and change that after publication. That’s the intention of that editability. Back in a long time ago, I don’t remember, checks notes, can’t remember, not chosen was a status of a cache size when it wasn’t chosen what the size was. If the cache owner skipped that, it would just be not chosen. And after a while in some of the many web updates over the years, someone said, well, that’s silly. We should just have them choose. Because the information on the cache page, the title, the size, the difficulty in terrain, is supposed to tell you something about what you are going to experience when you go to find that cache. And not chosen doesn’t really help anything. So let’s make people choose something.

0:17:07.0 Jessie Taylor: And so generally when site updates happen, the old is considered legacy. And so not chosen kind of became a legacy status. And so you can’t choose not chosen anymore. And for that matter, you can’t even search for it on geocaching.com or on the app. And there are other sites that you can use to search for not chosen caches. But one of the things about a challenge cache is that it needs to be findable on geocaching.com. Not chosen is not. And what’s also frustrating is that there will only be fewer not chosen caches because the website will actually snap into compliance. If a cache owner edits a cache page of a not chosen cache, it will automatically update to other. So let’s say you are working on filling your geocaching calendar using very specific caches, such as you wanted to fill your calendar using only regular sized caches or multi caches. I don’t know anyone who would do something like that.

0:18:17.8 Chris Ronan: Sometimes you can’t see sarcasm over your playback device.

0:18:24.4 Jessie Taylor: For the audio listeners.

0:18:25.3 Chris Ronan: The room is dripping with sarcasm. The walls are just filled with it right now. So anyway.

0:18:28.6 Jessie Taylor: Those were my COVID projects. And I was like, you know what? I don’t have an other today. I suppose I could go find that.

0:18:35.4 Chris Ronan: And we could do a whole episode on how much I hate other, by the way. I hate other. I hate it. I hate it. I hate it. The number of times I’ll be looking for a cache and I’m just scrolling through the cache page looking for any hint that can help me. And then I’m like, well, how big is it? Other. You’re kidding me. We need to have a… God, we should change it.

0:18:54.5 Jessie Taylor: An intervention of other. Imagine what not. I mean, I’m sure people felt the same way about not chosen. You’re like, what do you mean not chosen? Like, choose something.

0:19:01.3 Chris Ronan: Yeah, choose something. So anyway. So we could do another episode about that.

0:19:04.5 Jessie Taylor: Yeah, that sounds like a good one. I’ll come to that or I’ll tune in.

0:19:07.2 Chris Ronan: This is pet peeve. Volume one.

0:19:09.4 Jessie Taylor: Yes. Oh, my gosh. I’ll host and I’ll just ask you. That’ll be great. So then the cache page in the end gets snapped into compliance or snap to other unless the CEO chooses something else, even if they don’t actually edit the size field, which means someone could be working on a project or a challenge because it was publishable criteria up until very recently, August 20th, that you need to fill a calendar, you need to fill a DT grid. You needed to find different sizes in different regions. And you could have checked off not chosen in that day size location, whatever. And then you were no longer in… You hadn’t achieved that challenge because the caches were gone. How frustrating. We would get emails about that. People saying I drove very far to get a not chosen size and now it is different. And we can’t even switch it back. We can’t even ask the CEO to switch it back because it’s just a moot thing. So in order to help everybody kind of keep going smoothly and have a positive experience when you achieve something, you want to have remained… You want to maintain your achievement that we decided that was no longer anything publishable. The not chosen size.

0:20:27.0 Chris Ronan: All right, next one, only one attribute may be specified per challenge.

0:20:32.8 Jessie Taylor: That’s the toughest one. I feel like people have the most feeling. I know, it’s like this is a lot. I have a lot of notes about attributes. So this really struck a chord with some people, likely because there are a lot of reasons at first glance that can see like really complicated or not complicated at all. But attributes can be really complicated. So we can talk through some of those things. Attributes, first of all, are part of the cache page that describe, again, what people might experience or might expect when they go there. Oh, interesting. It looks like that one’s going to be in a front yard. So when I am heading towards someone’s front yard, should I go in there? Checks attributes in front yard. Sure should. Off I go. Now it’s essentially permission. How convenient. That’s the best case scenario of an attribute. So we also know that in the challenge cache guidelines after the moratorium, the challenges need to be a geocaching achievement. It can’t be bookkeeping. That’s kind of the opposite in conversation. What’s the difference or what’s the opposite of an achievement is just bookkeeping and how some challenges that fall into bookkeeping are find 47 caches that begin with the letter B, which isn’t necessarily an achievement. It’s just something fun to do, which you’re more than welcome to do.

0:21:54.4 Jessie Taylor: You just can’t have a challenge published for that. So because of the nature of attributes, a lot of attributes, there’s kind of a stretch for geocaching achievement. Find 47 caches with the tick attribute, for example, is that an achievement or is that bookkeeping? Well, it’s kind of hard to say. It depends on where the ticks are and where the caches are and what other sort of… What kind of… I mean, I’ve had run-ins with ticks before and that would be an achievement to get through some of those. But it’s a hard decision. Again, it’s that position, that middle road that a reviewer is in with all these different opinions. They know and it’s very clear that you can’t have a bookkeeping challenge. And part of the reason why those bookkeeping challenges aren’t publishable is because that was part of the survey. During the moratorium we did ask the community in a survey, what are your favorite types of challenges? What are the annoying types of challenges? And most people in those… I wasn’t a lackey then, but I have reviewed that. We still have that data. And I flipped through it as part of this process, which was fascinating.

0:22:58.3 Jessie Taylor: And most people said those are fun to do as a project, but they’re not like a challenge. It’s not an achievement. I’m not proud of that. I’m not like, everyone, let me tell you about the time that I found 100 caches that start with each letter of the alphabet. It was great. But you want to tell people about different types of challenges. So that was kind of categorized as that bookkeeping. So back to attributes, many reviewers were seeing a couple of things as a result of these challenges, bogus use of attributes and challenges which required a long list of arbitrary amounts of attributes. So first that bogus use of attributes, which is really frustrating for players who are looking for an accurate description of what they’re going to expect. It might not be abundantly clear from a description that a long hike isn’t required or that they may think there’s a wireless beacon feature when there isn’t actually. What is a wireless beacon? How do I work that? If there’s an attribute on there that you feel like you’re missing something. If bogus attributes are consistently used, then people essentially just learn not to trust them or look at them at all when that can actually be a really helpful source of information.

0:24:06.1 Jessie Taylor: The second issue, the challenges with a long list of attributes. These run into a couple of challenge guideline issues, bookkeeping as well as the simple and easy to explain, follow, and document bullet point that’s been in there since the moratorium was over. So when challenges are submitted, reviewers need to decide if a long list of attribute-based requirements is neither a geocaching achievement nor bookkeeping, which is a really… It’s a tough call ’cause they are using different methods to go through a decision about this. Like someone wanted to start to use a number. Okay, so four attributes is bookkeeping, but three is okay. But that feels arbitrary. What’s the difference between four and three? Well, you have to draw a line somewhere and maybe your reviewer just draws it there, but that doesn’t feel satisfying. And then the same is used if they’re trying to determine if something’s easy to explain, follow, and document. Okay, so this one has livestock, dogs nearby, for challenge criteria that you need to find caches that have livestock, dogs nearby, dangerous animals, and ticks. Okay, so that’s all animals. So that’s easier to understand and explain, but boats, thorns, tree climbing, and good for tourists is also four, but those aren’t really related to each other. That’s complicated to explain and remember, which was the, what did I just say that second one? It wasn’t an animal one. So that really resulted in a confusing and frustrating experience and inconsistent experience for cachers because sometimes four attributes were okay, sometimes they weren’t, sometimes one attribute was okay, sometimes as long as all the numbers, 100 of these and 100 of these and 100 of these and 100 of these, sometimes if it was the same number, that was okay. But you could use 13 different attributes. Well, that’s not consistent for the people who were told they could only use four attributes. So that got really complicated and really frustrating. Really everybody, nobody was having a good time in that scenario. So when the reviewers said that that has to change, the conversation kind of went like, okay, well, how about no attributes? Fine, none. These are complicated. These are silly. People are using them in a bogus sort of way. They just come up with a quilt of attributes in their challenge criteria.

0:26:18.9 Jessie Taylor: None. I’m tired of these. They’re frustrating. We can’t come up with a limit. Attributes no longer publishable. And then we at HQ have to take that in balance too of, I see that, that is an option. That is not going to sit well with a lot of people who come up with challenges that are attribute-based and they could be an achievement. And so then we asked the reviewers, well, what about, like long hike? That’s an achievement or a boating that maybe somebody doesn’t go boating a lot. So that’s a really major geocaching day. That’s an achievement. Or, geotour or something like that. That could be an achievement if it’s a big, long one or even not. So then the conversation was like, okay, well, some attributes could be achievement-based and some are not like, ticks or dogs nearby or something like that. Okay. Well, how then do we determine the ones that are publishable and the ones that aren’t? Well, that’s complicated too ’cause then you have different understanding of what is an achievement and what is not.

0:27:21.6 Jessie Taylor: Okay. So that sounds too complicated to review against and try to remember. Let’s go with a number. Let’s go with one. And if you would like to have a challenge that has some criteria and make sure only one of those pieces of criteria has to do with an attribute to make it simple and easy to understand, to make it not a bookkeeping exercise, to actually focus on it being a geocaching achievement and add fun. Back to me as a player, I have attribute-based challenges. I like to have fun with them. I like to find little themes with them. And they are fun to use and they are fun to seek out. I’ve gone to great lengths to find a phone nearby because for a long time I needed phone nearby caches for a challenge I signed. So that was the best meet-in-the-middle option that we could come up with.

0:28:19.6 Chris Ronan: And then if event caches are specified as challenge criteria, no additional criteria can be used.

0:28:26.9 Jessie Taylor: Yeah, that’s tricky because another thing that has always been, or since the moratorium a challenge guideline criteria is that there need to be plenty of qualifying caches on the map at the time of publication. So right now in this minute, you could search your map anywhere and have anywhere from zero events to a whole bunch. I mentioned earlier we are the land of abundance. We have a whole bunch of events on the map over here in Seattle. We are gifted with that. And some places might have an event a year. And so a lot of reviewers even feel events shouldn’t be publishable in general because of that guideline, that plenty of qualifying caches at the time of publication. Other reviewers look at it and saying, well, we know that ultimately there will be a bunch of events. We just might not have any now. But then that puts you in a really hard position. Like, yeah, but not at the time of publication, which is what the guidance says.

0:29:23.2 Chris Ronan: And how do you predict what’s going to come?

0:29:25.9 Jessie Taylor: Exactly. And things, as we know in this game, that some people get really into things. So then right now, maybe there’s a ton of events being hosted. It’s summertime in the Northern Hemisphere. This is a great time for hosting events. What’s going to happen in November or December when people are busy and it’s cold? So like I said, many reviewers feel events shouldn’t qualify for challenges at all on that principle. So the compromise in the middle is you can’t specify things about events. Because if you don’t have plenty of qualifying events on the map, you certainly wouldn’t have events on a Tuesday in April. Or you wouldn’t have events with this particular type of attribute. Or you wouldn’t have events within a certain month. So it’s just events to make it easier, especially for the places that don’t have a ton of events. Just number of events is qualifying. So your criteria can look like X number of events. No difficulty terrain specification. No date specification. No day of the week specification. No anything else like that or like a grid challenge or something like that. Just attend some events, meet some geocachers, have a great time, and then sign this challenge when you qualify.

0:30:41.9 Chris Ronan: So, if we fast forward six months or a year, what does success look like in your mind? When you look back on, for the reviewers and for the community and for HQ, for lackeys here that work with challenge caches via appeals or whatever, what do you hope things look like or that people are talking… What are people going to be saying about this six months or a year from now?

0:31:06.6 Jessie Taylor: Oh, yeah. I imagine that people will say, I hope people will say, that was really frustrating to hear when it came out, but I understand now why. But the reality is the game will change and new features from geocaching will come out. I’d like to see new things being publishable. Who knows? I’d like to see people working with their reviewers. And like you said earlier, Chris, there is no end to the creativity in the community. I’m always amazed and surprised and stupefied sometimes by the abundance of creativity and the things that people will come up with. And I believe that creative people and cache owners can work within all of these little parameters and still make some really motivating, fun challenges to work on. And I can’t wait to go find them.

0:32:06.4 Chris Ronan: That was Jessie Taylor, the head of community at Geocaching HQ. We probably could have talked for a lot longer on that subject, and maybe we will again someday. To learn more about challenge cache guidelines, look to the Geocaching Help Center, and you can find the announcement about the guideline update in the announcements section of the geocaching forums. If there was something you would like us to delve into on the HQ podcast, please send us an email. Podcast@geocaching.com is the place for that. And until next time, for me and Jessie and all of our fellow lackeys at Geocaching HQ, happy caching.