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0:00:00.0 Chris Ronan: Hey everybody, this is Inside Geocaching HQ. I am Chris Ronan, aka Rock Chalk, one of the 90 or so lackeys who works at Geocaching HQ in Seattle. And this is the podcast where we chat about things that are happening inside HQ, and today I am very happy to share a conversation with Matt Dawson. Matt works at the Geological Society of America. And has been intimately involved with the EarthCache program for many years. You may know that EarthCache is a program of the GSA in partnership with us at geocaching.com and other partners around the world. We get a lot of feedback from geocachers about EarthCaches. It is certainly a beloved cache type, but we do hear often that some EarthCaches can become pretty complicated with a long list of logging tasks, and so in recent months, we have been crunching some numbers about EarthCaches to see if the data backs up some of that feedback that we have been hearing. We shared some of our findings in a new post on the Geocaching blog. I won’t rehash all of it here, but we did find that EarthCache descriptions are a lot longer than they used to be, and EarthCache finds have decreased steadily as a percentage of total geocache finds back in 2011, for instance, EarthCache is made up about 14% of all geocaching finds.

0:01:47.1 CR: Today, it’s 6%, numbers like that concerned HQ and the GSA enough that we are making suggestions to EarthCache creators including that they try not to exceed three logging tasks and a photo that they list logging tasks at the top of the cache description, and that they just try to generally keep in mind that EarthCaches are meant to assume that finders have only a basic knowledge of geology, and as Matt Dawson says during the conversation that you’re about to hear, that less is sometimes more. So without any further ado, here is my chat with Matt Dawson from the GSA.

0:02:36.6 CR: Okay, well, Matt, let’s start with what is the GSA for people that are listening that might not be super familiar with it, and especially if you live in another part of the world outside of the United States. What is the Geological Society of America all about?

0:02:52.4 Matt Dawson: Yeah, well, first of all, thanks a lot, Chris, and the folks at geocaching.com for inviting me here for this discussion today, I’m really glad to be able to chat about the EarthCache program with you. And I’ll just quickly introduce myself and say a little bit about my organization, GSA, and my name is Matt Dawson, and I work at the Geological Society of America. The Geological Society of America is a membership-based organization with thousands of members all around the United States and around the world, we provide support for the community of geoscientists and help support their research through scientific publications and conferences. And we also support the professional growth of geoscientists at all levels of their career, from college student, all the way up through seasoned veteran geoscientist. And we also provide support for a lot of students through research funding, internship and work experiences, fellowships, grants, scholarships, and other various forms of support. And of course, we are also involved in public outreach to an extent, and the EarthCache partnership is one of the center pieces of our public outreach.

0:04:10.6 CR: It’s based in Boulder, Colorado, correct?

0:04:13.5 MD: That’s right, yeah, yeah. Although we are a global society, we are based in Boulder, Colorado, and that’s where I’m situated and we have staff in various places around the country. And we also have a Washington DC office as well.

0:04:29.9 CR: Yeah, and my niece and I got to visit with you last year, and that was fantastic to get to visit the building. You have some really fun examples of geology around your building and various specimens and stuff like that and it was super cool to be able to do that, and then we went out and found EarthCache together, which was really neat too.

0:04:51.5 MD: Yeah, some of the early EarthCaches were developed around GSA headquarters by various GSA staff members. And in a town like Boulder, you know there’s gonna be really great… A town with a name like Boulder, you know, there’s gonna be a really great geology in the area, so we are really proud to be the hosts of a number of really nice EarthCache locations.

0:05:13.3 CR: You’ve been at the GSA for as long as I’ve been at Geocaching HQ, and I think probably a lot longer, so how long have you been there and… Yeah. Just kind of what’s your day-to-day like there?

0:05:24.4 MD: Yeah, I’ve been at the Geological Society of America since 2010, and currently I work as the assistant director for our Center for Professional Excellence. Our Center for Professional Excellence is a relatively new initiative that supports the growth and the excellence of geoscientists throughout all stages of their career, from when they are an undergraduate student, all the way up through a senior geologist or even retirees. And some of the programs that I deal with most directly are things like, for example, our graduate student research grant program, which provides funding for Masters and PhD level students to carry out research within all different areas of the geosciences. Some other programs I’m directly involved with are the Scientists in Parks Program, which is an internship based program in partnership with the National Park Service, who is also one of the original partners for the EarthCache program. That program provides internship opportunities for students and recent graduates in all facets of the scientists on all facets of the sciences, including geoscience, and then we also have a GeoCorps America program that’s a partnership with other public land agencies like the US Forest Service and the US Bureau of Land Management, and that provides paid work experiences for students and recent graduates, specifically in the geosciences.

0:06:50.7 MD: Areas of soil resources, hydrology and water resources, conservation of national forests and the geological resources that exist within them, so those are some of the key programs that I work with, there are some others as well. And of course, the EarthCache program.

0:07:08.7 CR: Yeah, so you’ve been there for more than half of the EarthCache programs live, so let’s talk about the EarthCache program. And before we… Well, I guess at the beginning of this, we should make sure to mention that a number of people have worked on this program over the years, but Gary Lewis is somebody in particular that we should mention because Gary is kind of… I guess you’d say the father maybe of the EarthCache program, right?

0:07:32.4 MD: Definitely. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. I think most people would consider Gary Lewis the father of the EarthCache program. Gary, who’s caching name was Geo aware. He was the original Geo aware. There are many of us now, but Gary created the first EarthCache in 2004 in Australia, and that’s EarthCache one and it was a geologic exploration of a location called Wasp Head on the Australian coast exploring some really neat erosional features and looking at the geological history of the rocks in that area, and their EarthCache Program started really with that first EarthCache placement in Australia. But it was born out of discussions at a GSA annual meeting, one of our conferences that brings together geoscientists from around the world, but there’s a conversation about how to get the public more engaged in earth science and the possibility of doing that through connections with the geocaching community, and from there the idea of EarthCaching was born.

0:08:41.6 CR: And I know I still see Gary’s name occasionally on Facebook that he leads EarthCaching tours and stuff like that, so he’s still very involved in that, even though he’s not at the GSA anymore. So why is the EarthCache program important to the GSA? Why do you feel like the program is valuable to the organization?

0:09:00.6 MD: I think the EarthCache program, like I said earlier, GSA considers it one of its key ways of generating outreach about the earth sciences to the general public. The EarthCache program has brought tens of thousands… It’s actually, I suppose millions now, people have had earth science education experiences through this program. It also helps people have an experience of what it’s like to be a geoscientist in a very small way through the logging tasks, and this is something I’m sure we’ll get to later in this conversation. But the logging tasks really are an important part of EarthCaches for GSA, because that’s what encourages people to think scientifically about their surroundings, going a little bit deeper beyond the just wow factor or the scenic nature or the natural beauty around them, but by engaging with and providing answers to the logging tasks, people really start to think a little bit like an earth scientist would. So that’s something that’s really important to GSA. Another reason it’s important to GSA is because if its global and international nature, there are EarthCaches all around the earth, so it’s not just something that’s limited to the area around Boulder, Colorado or the United States, earth caching is popular in many countries around the world.

0:10:25.1 MD: There have been EarthCaches events globally, like official international EarthCache events and other events that have focused on earth caching that shows that it really is a global and international phenomenon, because of course, there’s earth science everywhere, right? That’s, again, one of those things that’s illustrated through the EarthCache program. The EarthCache is at really well-known and special locations like the Grand Canyon in the United States, for example, where some of the popular tourist destinations in Iceland. But there are some folks who can find EarthCaches in their neighborhoods as well, so again, it just goes to show people that earth science really is everywhere, and it’s a part of our everyday lives.

0:11:09.3 CR: Yeah, and that’s something that I know when you and I went out and found an EarthCache there in Boulder that we were discussing, what it is that ideal you hope a geocacher gets out of their EarthCaching experience. And that the one that we found was actually I think it may have been one that Gary placed many, many, many years ago, and it was very, very simple.

0:11:33.0 MD: That’s right. That’s right.

0:11:34.8 CR: And as I recall, there was maybe even only one logging tasks, and you had said something that stuck with me, I think you said you could see that this could be maybe fleshed out a little bit more, but this is a great EarthCache because it was just so simple, you saw something, you learned a little something about it, and you walked away knowing a little bit more, and really that’s what you would like to see if somebody get out of an EarthCache.

0:12:03.0 MD: Yeah, that’s exactly right. I am a big believer that in many cases, less is more, and thinking back to that EarthCache that we visited, it had a very, very tight and focused lesson on the types of rocks visible right at that location, wasn’t trying to teach the entire geological history of the front range of the Rocky Mountains in Colorado, it was just very well-focused and you left knowing a little bit more than you did that morning. And again, it also just got you thinking like an earth scientist and realizing that our science is all around you. And also, I think a good EarthCache inspires people to want to learn more about an area, and they don’t need to do all that learning through the EarthCache itself, they could do that learning by visiting local parks or museums or learning centers or looking online at some other resources like their local their state geological survey, for example, most states in the United States have a geological survey or an organization like it that can provide really good information about one’s local geology. And there are organizations like that around the world too, but yeah, I’m a big believer that less is more and keeping things simple can deliver a better lesson and a better experience.

0:13:24.3 CR: Yeah, and that’s kind of what prompted in our conversation here today. Well, one thing being that it’s recently the 20th anniversary of EarthCaching, and so I thought that would be a good reason for us to talk, but also that HQ is gonna be publishing this blog post where we make some suggestions for people specifically for EarthCache owners as they’re constructing EarthCaches, after we had not just looked at some statistics about EarthCaches, but also that we in HQ, and I’m guessing you also get feedback about EarthCaches over time, and some people say to us that, I feel like I had to write a dissertation in order to get a founded on this EarthCache. And it’s tricky, isn’t it? To find that balance between, you wanna create something that people can learn from, but you also don’t want it to be so overwhelming that people don’t even bother trying to read it and learn from it.

0:14:19.2 MD: That’s exactly right. A geology dissertation is for graduate school, and we have lots of members who are graduate students working on dissertations right now, and EarthCaches are not meant to replicate that experience, they are really intended to get people interested in and excited about geology, especially the geology around them, the geology where they’re vacationing or the geology where they live. I like this new initiative that we’re working on now, and that you’ll be describing more in this upcoming blog post, because I think it brings the EarthCache program back to its roots in a way where it really is about raising awareness of the earth sciences and getting people excited about being outside, which I think is very well aligned with the goals of geocaching in general.

0:15:06.1 CR: When you visit an EarthCache or even when you and I went out and he found one, what makes a good EarthCache in your mind?

0:15:15.9 MD: Yeah, it’s a really great question. And some of the things that I look for in an EarthCache are what is the cache owner trying to help me to learn? What is the lesson they’re trying to get across? Personally, I prefer EarthCaches that are not attempting to address the entire geological history of an area, but instead have a really good focus, and maybe it’s teaching about a specific type of fossil that you can see in a road cut there before you, or it might be discussing a certain type of mineral that occurs within the igneous rocks in the outcrops of an area that you’re visiting. I really like to see a very well thought out and focused lesson that’s not really all over the place, and it’s just really clear what is being taught and there could be other things that you might teach there, but they don’t all need to be crammed into the EarthCache. I think sometimes somebody might be better off creating multiple EarthCaches, maybe there are two or three different things you can see at a location, but maybe focus on one here, and then perhaps a few miles away, there’s even a better example of this other feature that you want to teach people about, and you can create a different EarthCache that focuses solely on that without trying to cram multiple topics into one location.

0:16:41.5 MD: I think this would make for a better EarthCaching experience. I also look for EarthCaches that are unique and are highlighting something a little bit different that you don’t hear about all the time, and EarthCaches that highlight a feature that you can’t really see in a lot of other places. So uniqueness is really important to me as an EarthCacher and also a clear and focused lesson. Those are a couple of things I look for personally when visiting an EarthCache, and although I don’t really review EarthCaches on a regular basis anymore, except occasionally where I’m called upon to provide a little extra assistance here and there, but when I was a more frequent reviewer, those are the things I looked for as a reviewer as well.

0:17:29.3 CR: For somebody out there who has never created an EarthCache before, and I’d even put myself in that category because it feels a little overwhelming sometimes that… ’cause I’m not a geologist, and most of my interest in earth or my experience with earth science or geology comes from my experience with EarthCaches. So for somebody like me who might think I’m not qualified to put out an EarthCache, are there any tips or any guidance that you would give to somebody who might have some interest in creating an EarthCache, but isn’t really sure exactly where to start, even if they have maybe identified something that they think could be a place for a lesson?

0:18:14.6 MD: So for somebody who’s just getting started out with creating an EarthCache. I think one of my biggest pieces of advice would be to really trust your reviewer, and I think I’ll use this as an opportunity to acknowledge and thank the team of International EarthCache reviewers or the Geo awares who make the EarthCache program possible. I see them as a really fantastic resource to the community, they really like publishing EarthCaches and working with cache owners to help them to create the best EarthCache listing that they can. So that’s one piece of advice I would offer is to definitely rely on their expertise of the area, because they’ve likely published… I don’t even wanna put a number on it, but many, many EarthCaches, and they’re gonna have good familiarity of the area and can help guide you in the right direction if help is needed with your listing, because it’s very rare that a listing gets published immediately once it’s submitted. There’s usually a rough process of revising, editing and making sure everything meets the guidelines. So that’s one piece of advice I would give. Another one would be, I guess to go back to my statement earlier about less being more, and don’t try to include everything about the area’s geological history in your EarthCache listing.

0:19:38.8 MD: Don’t approach it as like, I wanna make an EarthCache, but where should I do it? It should almost be the other way around, like you come across the location in your travels or in some reading and you get inspired and you realize, Wow, this place would work, this would be a great place to create an EarthCache, and if you encounter a location like that and get inspired I think that makes things a lot easier because already you… If you’re inspired by it, other people are likely to be inspired by it as well, and it’s really just a matter of you serving as their guide and helping them have that same experience that you had, and just picking a simple, straightforward lesson, decide what it is you want somebody to learn when they visit your EarthCache location.

0:20:28.6 MD: And do your research, you don’t need to become an expert in the area’s geology, you don’t need to write a dissertation or to have done extensive research, but get yourself well-versed and use the resources that are available. There are a lot of great resources out there about earth science. Earlier I mentioned organizations that are commonly called geological surveys, here in the United States, we have the US Geological Survey that serves the country as a whole, but most, if not all states have a geological survey or an organization like it that publish geological maps and reports and other sorts of resources about an area’s geology. Sometimes it can get a little bit technical, but there are often resources that are really designed for wide consumption by the greater public. And here in the United States, there’s a publisher called Mountain Press and other publishers, better kind of like them, that put out really good books with maps and background information about about the geology of in different states and regions. And again, there are the equivalent of these sorts of resources in other countries around the world.

0:21:45.6 MD: So identify what those resources are. Local universities can also be a great resource, many, many universities have geology departments or earth science and environmental science departments, and they may have some information online or have public presentations periodically about various topics within the earth sciences. So get yourself educated. But again, don’t feel like you need to have a master’s degree or a PhD in the area’s geology before creating an EarthCache. The program really is designed for the general public, and somebody who is relatively new to earth science, I think is well suited to making an EarthCache because they’re kind of exploring and learning alongside of the folks that are coming and visiting the location too. So don’t be intimidated.

0:22:34.4 CR: Well, you’ve inspired me, and those are some great tips. So kind of as we wrap up here, I think we can talk about this program forever, but in respect of your time, again, looking back 20 years at this program… And I know you weren’t there for the very beginning, but you’ve been there for most of it, it must be… I don’t know, there must be a lot of pride that comes for the GSA, and as you mentioned, the so many reviewers that have… The volunteers that have helped over the course of the years that when I look at that map and I see all those dots all over the world that each one of them representing a really interesting lesson about geology and earth science, it must be a really great feeling for you and everyone else at the GSA.

0:23:23.5 MD: You nailed it, it’s an awesome feeling, and I’m always blown away when I see how many EarthCaches there are, and where they are and how they really are anywhere. And I wanna give a big thanks to you and the other folks at geocaching.com for being so supportive of this partnership over the years and for helping to make EarthCache program what it is today. It’s also been amazing to see how far geocaching has come and the progress it’s made over the years. And again, there are geocachers and EarthCachers everywhere. GSA holds professional conferences in the spring, regional conferences and a large national, really international annual conference every fall, and before traveling to those events, I always go online and look up what EarthCachers are in the area, and then we publicize those to our members who are attending the conference and without fail, wherever our events are taking place, there are some really great and interesting EarthCaches in those areas, whether it’s Anaheim California, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, Vancouver, Canada a few years ago, and just great EarthCaches everywhere. I’m always impressed by what people in the community are coming up with.

0:24:36.3 CR: Well, here’s to another 20 years and yeah, and it’s always great talking to you about EarthCaches and really appreciate your time with us and we’ll look forward to seeing where the program goes from here.

0:24:50.5 MD: Well, thanks a lot, Chris, and again, thanks for inviting me to join you in this conversation today, and thanks again for all the support that you and your colleagues at geocaching.com have given to this great source of earth science outreach over the years. Thank you.

0:25:08.1 CR: That was Matt Dawson from the Geological Society of America. You can read more about the EarthCache program on the GSA’s website, and we’ve got that new blog post out this week on the Geocaching blog about the EarthCache Program, and those suggestions that we are making to EarthCache creators. Remember, if you’ve got an idea for our podcast or any feedback about it, we are all ears via email at podcast@geocaching.com. That is podcast@geocaching.com. Thanks again to Matt Dawson for chatting with me and on behalf of myself and all the other lackeys at Geocaching HQ, happy caching.