Link to podcast

00:15 Chris Ronan: Hello everybody, welcome to Inside Geocaching HQ. This is the podcast about the goings on at Geocaching HQ in Seattle. My name is Chris Ronan, my user name is Rock Chalk, and I am one of the 80 or so lackeys who works at HQ. And on this episode, I am checking in with one of my fellow lackeys, Bryan Roth. Bryan is the president and one of the co-founders of Geocaching HQ, and we had a chance to chat about what’s been happening at HQ during the pandemic. We talked about the new cache owner dashboard, and we chatted a little bit about the adventure lab app. So let’s get into it, me and Bryan, talking about all kinds of stuff. Here we go.

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01:08 CR: Well, we will kick it off here then.

01:09 Bryan Roth: Welcome to the Geocaching podcast. Go ahead, you do it.

01:14 CR: No, you did it right there. We’re in.

01:16 BR: That was pretty lackadaisical. Here, wait. I’ll try a better one.

01:19 CR: Alright.

01:19 BR: Alright. Welcome to the Geocaching HQ podcast.

01:26 CR: I think we should just keep that actually, and I’ll just play that at the start of every…

01:32 BR: Right.

01:33 CR: Every podcast. [laughter]

01:35 BR: The people who know me will be like, “Oh, that’s cool that Bryan gets to do that little piece.” But I think you too you’ve got a good one also.

01:42 CR: Everybody knows you, Bryan. Everybody knows your voice and says, “I know that guy. And if I don’t, I wanna know that guy.”

01:51 BR: No. Oh, oh, Chris. [laughter] That’s pretty funny. I don’t think so, but anyway. I’ll take it.

01:58 CR: Well, it’s been… I guess we last talked in March here on the podcast, and so on one level, it feels like that wasn’t that long ago, but for me personally, it seems like forever ago. So just kind of checking back in since then. Just kind of for you personally and your family, how has everything been going for you guys?

02:20 BR: You know, I think we’re doing okay. We’ve been social distancing and staying home and staying safe, just like everybody else. Just trying to be responsible, wearing masks. I had to run out this morning and get some groceries and so it’s surprising that it’s almost become second nature to know that I have to have a mask with me pretty much to leave the house. And when we’re walking around the neighborhood, it’s not really a problem because the people that are walking, everybody knows they’ll go to the other side of the street or just give everybody kind of a wide berth or latitude, if we’re gonna use some geocaching terms. Give people some latitude.

03:05 BR: But yeah, I think where we’ve been pretty fortunate that nobody has it, and so we’re just trying to stay safe and do what we can, and it’s been a pretty significant life change for us as a family. Otherwise, on a personal level, things have been okay. I would like to be done with this, and I’d like to get to see friends and family and that’s just not easy to do. The sooner we can get through this as a society, the better.

03:36 CR: And for people that don’t know, there is a Geocaching mask available at Shop Geocaching.

03:40 BR: Yes, there is, and in fact, that was the mask that I was wearing this morning. I have two of them. Well, I have a Shop Geocaching mask or a geocaching mask from Shop Geocaching, and I have a Star Wars mask that was made by a person that I know. And it’s just lovely, and so I kind of trade off between the two.

04:03 CR: Yeah, I love the Geocaching one. It’s of course green and little geocaching logo and the word “Geocaching” on it. That’s what I’ve been wearing everywhere, so hopefully people are… Hopefully it’ll help spread the word a little bit about… [chuckle]

04:16 BR: Yeah, I mean, for all of you out there, find a mask that you like and just use it, and let’s try and get through this COVID thing as quickly as we all can.

04:27 CR: Yeah, for sure. In general, how do you feel like HQ and the lackeys at HQ have been handling the pandemic from a work standpoint?

04:39 BR: It has been interesting. I think the last time we spoke was probably maybe a week or so into the remote working… I don’t remember the exact date, but I wanna say this past Thursday… So today is Monday… This past Thursday was 18 weeks of working remotely for a company that has always been a positive kind of office culture where everybody shows up every day and we all work together and have meetings and eat in the Signal Cafe together. To go relatively… Well, literally… Overnight to 100% remote working has been challenging in a lot of ways, but in other ways, it’s allowed us to learn some things about just how resilient and flexible we are as individuals and as a company.

05:36 BR: So I would say as a company, we’ve done quite well. We’ve made the transition. I think everybody has understood what it is that we have to do. We still have to get the job done, and it’s just the environment has changed drastically. And so on an individual level, for some lackeys it’s been really challenging, and for others, it’s been a little bit easier. I guess I would point out some of the lackeys that have young children or multiple young children, that if there’s an absence of daycare or school, well, then you have parents or single parents trying to manage children while also managing their job, and that creates some stress and can be…

06:23 BR: Can be difficult. One of the things that we’ve said to the lack is… Really at the beginning of this and then kind of throughout this time, is we said, “We really wanna be able to look back on this time and feel like we, as a company, made the right decisions and kept the important things as priorities. And so the safety and health of the employees is of paramount importance, and the safety and health of the community members also. And so regrettably, the visitor center at Geocaching HQ will be closed for a while, and that’s just what we have to do, what we know we have to do. At some point we hope to be able to return to HQ in some form. It’s not going to be, “Hey, everybody, come back tomorrow and let’s fill the office with people.” It will probably be a phased approach, just like many of the governments are doing.

07:18 BR: I have to say that I’m really pleased with how well we have been able to weather this as a company. I think we’ve also been fortunate. So for those of you who… Out there in geocaching world who haven’t noticed, there’s quite a few people that have taken up geocaching as a way to get outside, stay active and social distance at the same time. And so with the new user growth, membership growth and activity in the game, we still have to keep doing what we can to keep things going. And what it’s meant for us financially is unlike restaurants and airlines and hotels, we haven’t really been negatively affected by COVID from a financial sense. And so we’re really fortunate that we haven’t had to make some of the really challenging decisions that other companies have had to make with regard to furloughing or laying off employees and things like that, and I… We don’t take it for granted and do feel very fortunate and our goal remains the same.

08:25 BR: We try and be responsible as individuals and as a company, and at the same time, we try and do our job and make sure that the website and the mobile apps are functioning, and we are continuing to push forward with the projects that we have for new features and functionality and new things that we wanna bring to the game and give to the global community. So that’s kind of how we’re doing.

08:52 CR: You alluded to it just a little bit there, about increase in sign-ups and things of that nature. Geocaching, like any activity, we’ve had to figure out how to do it safely and how you can keep playing during this whole thing. But in general, what have you seen as far as just geocaching activity, sign-ups are up, are people finding more caches? What is the… The statistics that you’ve been able to see, what does it say about how people are playing geocaching right now?

09:29 BR: Well, I think what we’ve seen, it’s been a little bit of a cycle, so as the world went into kind of a COVID quarantine, we saw moratoriums placed on cache placements. Caches were not being published and we didn’t want a lot of people rushing out and getting to specific areas at the same time, and really, we didn’t want a lack of social distancing. And I think that the community volunteer reviewers around the world looked at their regions and said, “Here’s what we need to do at this point for the safety of geocachers,” and I believe that was handled really well. There was a lot of people that were trying to go out and maybe find a lonely cache or two, or bringing hand sanitizer and lysol-ing the cash before they open it and when they close it, and doing things like that. We’ve seen an uptick in people playing with Adventure Labs, which is nice because there’s no containers involved except perhaps for bonus caches, but as things have moved like here in Washington State to phase two, we’ve seen activity start to pick up, cash publications have increased in different countries around the world that as they’ve made improvements in their status.

10:52 BR: It feels like we had a dip where things really did slow down because people were staying home because they had to comply with the law. And they weren’t even allowed to go out, and that was in certain countries, but as the regulations have eased, we are seeing people come back and more people playing the game. And so from a year over year perspective, we’re seeing more geocaching activity this year, than we saw last year. We are seeing more membership growth this year than we saw last year. And last year was a good year for activity and growth, and so to see an increase on that, it feels really positive. When we think about geocaching as an activity, we know that it’s good for people, we know that it’s good to get outside and have adventures and explore the world. And so for us to see more people doing this, and particularly seeing more people doing it as a way to keep themselves happy and sane and engaged during a time where maybe a lot of other outlets are really limited, it makes us feel really good about the work that we’re doing and trying to contribute to making people a little bit happier at a time when that might not be as easy to do it as it used to be pre-COVID.

12:16 CR: You have been involved with this company for so many years, one of the co-founders, but no matter how long you’ve been a leader of a company, nobody, I don’t think is educated in how to lead a company through a pandemic, and so this is absolutely a new experience. I’m just curious. From that standpoint, what are some of the things that you feel like you’ve come away with over these past few months or maybe things… I don’t know, things you wish you would have known before this happened, or things that you feel like you’ve learned that will be valuable in the years to come?

12:24 BR: It’s a great question. There’s really so many aspects of this that have presented new decision points and moments where we have felt like it is not a choice to not make a choice. You have to do something. And so really early on, we were hearing about things happening over in Kirkland. So near Seattle, the first nursing home… Seattle was kind of ground zero for COVID in the United States really early on because of that one nursing home.

13:31 BR: And so we were very, very well aware of what was happening. And I had been over in Bonn, Germany, for the Beethoven Mega, and I got back to the office. I flew back on March 1st, which was a Monday, and so Tuesday 2nd, I was in the office, and on Wednesday as a senior management team, we met and we had heard that… I believe it was Microsoft and Amazon… Were basically sending their employees home. And so we sat in a room and we said, “Okay, what do we do right now?” I’d been in the office for two days and we said, “Look, the responsible thing to do for the safety of our employees, safety of the lackeys, ourselves included, is hey, it’s Wednesday, let’s get an announcement out to the company. Starting tomorrow, everybody is working from home.” It is, I believe, the first time it was strongly recommended that everybody work from home, and then within a very short period of time, we got more guidance from the local government, and we made it mandatory that everybody work from home.

14:39 BR: What was interesting about that, and I alluded to it a little bit earlier, is that we were never a company where there was a lot of remote working. There were people who would do one day a week, and some people would do two days a week, but by and large… To give you some idea, in 19 and a half years, I worked remotely less than five days in 19 and a half years. Because being in the office was important, and that’s where a lot of the dialogue was taking place, and things like that. And had you asked me pre-COVID, “Hey, what do you think about testing out remote working? Let’s have the whole company work remotely for a month and see how it goes,” I would have said “You’re out of your mind. That’s absolutely crazy. I don’t know. It’s a big risk. Look at what could happen. Things could go wrong. We might not be able to communicate.” Like, there’s plenty of plenty of things to be fearful about in the absence of knowing, but here we were, here we are being forced to test the theory.

15:42 BR: And it wasn’t just a week or a month. Now, it’s been many weeks and our expectation is this is gonna go for quite a bit longer. One of the things that we’ve said to the lackeys is that nobody will be required to return to the office until at least January 4th of next year at the earliest, and so it may even go longer than that, but we didn’t feel it would be responsible to force somebody to come into the office when there is a substantial risk to their health. That doesn’t feel like something that a good company should be doing. So that was a lesson. That’s a decision point. There have been a variety of other things. What tools do we use for communication? How do we do collaborative projects together? How do we set timelines? What are we willing to accept in terms of a balance for employees who are having a harder time at home? And so one of the other decisions that we made was, essentially, if you are an employee and you are struggling for whatever reason with COVID, we are just asking that you find… And the phrase we used is ” comfortable balance.”

17:00 BR: We don’t want the lackeys to suffer during this time. And everybody’s kinda suffering in their own way, and everybody’s got different challenges, but it’s important for us to get through this as a team, as a company, and as a community. And so being a little bit flexible with ourselves as individuals and our team members is something that felt really important to us. And I guess one thing that I would say that I’ve been able to reflect upon is over the years, we get asked like, “Hey, look, this company is 16 years old, it’s 18 years old… Now, it’s 19-plus years old. How did you get to be this kind of company?” And we’re proud of a lot of the things that we’ve accomplished. We’re on Outside Magazine’s best place to work. We are helping millions of people around the world have a fun and exciting outdoor activity. There’s a lot of good things to say about what has been accomplished by the team here at Geocaching HQ with support from cash owners and community volunteer reviewers and moderators and translators. And it’s this full community effort that has created what it has created, but we never sat down and said, 20 years ago, “Hey, here’s a business plan for the kind of company that we’d like to create.” The truth is we had no idea what was over the horizon. We didn’t know what came next, and so.

18:29 BR: What we see today, I believe, is the result of 10,000 individual decisions that have been made with a good set of values, and compassion, and caring, and the type of things that I think we would all want from leadership in any form. And so bringing that to this company… Yes, some of those decisions that we’ve made have been bad decisions and we can’t get them all right, but by and large, we brought good values to it. Here’s where we are, and it’s an exciting place to be. And I think that when we look at where we are and how we’ve responded to COVID, it’s pretty much the same thing. I don’t know what tomorrow’s decision is gonna be. We don’t know what the next question on the horizon is going to be, but… And it’s not just me.

19:19 BR: It’s the board of directors, so it’s Jeremy, and Elias, who are thoughtfully considering this alongside… It’s the senior leadership team, and it’s the lackeys themselves who are coming up with ideas and the dialogue and suggestions for how we can do better or make a better decision or respond to a specific thing that we need to respond to. And so when you take a series of good values across the company and across the community, and then you take guidance of, “Hey, we wanna be a good company, we wanna do right by the community, we wanna do right by our employees, well, then the next decision that comes by, we’re gonna do our best. We’re gonna make a decision, and we’re gonna go forward, and if it’s not the right decision or if we need to adjust it, well then we’re gonna try and adjust it as quickly as possible.

20:09 BR: So what we have learned is we’ve learned how this company with almost zero notice goes from a non-remote working company to a fully remote working company. And I have to say, I’m proud of the team, I’m proud of the company, and I’m proud of the overall community for how people have responded and come together and the dialogue that we see on social media. People welcoming new people, helping out new geocachers, answering each other’s questions, that’s one of the main reasons why this is so cool is because I think that the geocaching community, particularly now, has demonstrated why it’s such a positive model for any type of community out there.

20:57 BR: I’ve said this a number of times before, but in a world where there are so many things that divide people, geocaching is one of those things where everybody is welcome and people come together as a community to raise the bar for everybody and make things better. And so as a company, as a geocacher, as one of the many leaders at HQ, I’m really… I’m excited about the future. I’m proud of how we’ve done so far. And I’m looking forward to getting to a… Whatever that new post-COVID normal is so that we can get back to kind of hugging our friends and shaking hands and really going to mega events and giga events and even regular geocaching events. I think of all the things, that’s probably what I miss the most is getting to see our friends in person and welcoming visitors to HQ. So this won’t last forever. Between now and whenever we can get back to it, everybody should be focused on staying safe, staying healthy, staying active, and look at the person next to you and if they need a little bit of help, maybe reach out, have a conversation or do something to help your neighbors.

22:17 CR: One thing I think we would have been shaking hands and high-fiving over if we were together was this new project that was released not long ago. The new cache owner dashboard. And if people haven’t seen it, you can find it on the website or go to the geocaching blog and read more about it. And it was a really big project and you spoke about collaboration, and I think it was a great example of a team of folks that kept pushing forward on that and getting it done, and the reviews, I think in general, have been really, really positive, what… Why did HQ feel that this cache owner dashboard project was an important thing to put these resources into?

23:00 BR: You know, there’s a lot of different ideas and different projects that either come from the community or come from the lackeys that really feel like things that we need to do. When we consider the game of geocaching, we know just how important it is to have quality geocaches that are well maintained, and to be fair, we haven’t put a lot of effort into cache owner tools in the past. There’s certainly some effort and there’s information there and there’s a number of systems and communication protocols where people can report a DNF or for a needs maintenance and things like that to ideally get cache owners to upload where their caches are or maintain their caches. In this case, and we’ve talked about this in the past, just the concept of keeping the game board fresh and accessible and positive for geocachers so that when a family with kids go out or an individual or a couple and they find the cache, having that be a positive experience is what leads to more positive experiences. Maybe they go become a cache owner. It leads to a better game of geocaching overall. And so when we looked at the list of priorities, we came to the conclusion that it was time for us to do something big for cache owners.

24:30 BR: As you said, this was a… It was a big project that was in the a cross-team collaboration. A lot of research and a lot of really thought and care that went into identifying things that cache owners would like to see on an effectively a dashboard that would give them the information that they want in a quick and easy way and set them up to action things that they need to action and get a good understanding and overview of the caches that they have out there. And so for a variety of reasons among those, the team set out and did a lot of research, worked with a lot of cache owners, worked with a lot of internal stakeholders, and yes, last week was the release, and I dare say that in all of the recent releases that I can remember, this one was received the most positively. And for us, when we do any type of project we wanna make the geocachers happy, we want to make the community happy. Sometimes we get it wrong, sometimes we get it right. Thankfully, it feels like more often we’re getting things right, which is exciting. But this one feels like a real win, and so if you are a cache owner or an aspiring cache owner, please do check it out.

25:47 BR: For a number of you who own multiple caches, I think you’re going to find it to be a really useful and valuable tool, and if you have suggestions, please send them along, ’cause we do wanna know what else we can do to focus on and how we can make it better for everybody.

26:05 CR: You touched on the Adventure Lab App briefly as something that a lot of folks were turning to when they didn’t, maybe, feel comfortable with physical caches, and more adventures are out there. It’s getting more and more use. I’m certainly seeing a lot more talk of it as there are more opportunities for people to play with the app and use it, and as a result, of course, as with any product, there are suggestions and ideas for how to make it better. How does HQ go about trying to take in all of the ideas and the suggestions that might come in for how to make the app better and just things that they’d like to see be a part of the app?

26:47 BR: Well, first of all, I can say that even internally, there’s a lot of ideas for how to make it better, it needs… It’s still an early stage product and project. And we have a number of ideas for things that we wanna add and adjustments that we wanna make. We have a full team that is focused on adventures full-time, and they are reviewing suggestions that come in from the community, they’re reviewing suggestions that come from internally. And then we kind of stack rank them and prioritize them and investigate them and say, “Well, what exactly does this mean? How much effort would it make to build it? Is this a good long-term strategy? Does this make sense to go build it?” Another thing that I would add is that a number of us, myself included, are engaged in some of the Facebook groups around adventures and we are listening and contributing, and when we hear suggestions that make sense we’ll bring those back to the company. Or when we see something that’s really cool, we will bring that back to the company and share it and say, “Look at what this group is doing with the Adventure Lab platform.”

28:03 BR: Look at this really cool adventure and wow it’s a… ” I think I mentioned this one before, but it’s one of my favorites, but in Turkey, there is a James Bond adventure where you can go to five different locations where different James Bond films were made, and… I’m a James Bond fan. I really like those movies and I would love to go to Turkey to see that… To visit that adventure. And so as I look through the directory of adventures that are being created and even the ones that are being shared on Facebook, I’m looking at these things, and like with really cool geocaches, I’m saying, “How do I get to do all the ones that I wanna do?” And right now with travel completely limited, it feels like that’s ways away. There are quite a few of them coming online in the Seattle area, which is really exciting. But there are Adventure Labs being created all over the world now. We are giving out a lot of credits, and the goal was to keep giving out credit.

29:09 BR: So what I can say about what’s coming next in terms of credit distribution is the first phase that we tested with, we created a list at some point last year, and we said, “If you want one of these and you meet these requirements, fill out a form.” And we took those forms and we started out by giving out a couple hundred credits. And we got someone out in Adventure Labs, and then we said, “Let’s give out more credits and more credits.” And we went through most of that list that we first got, and then after taking that list, we said, “Let’s try randomly distributing them to premium members who meet a set of qualifications.” So I believe you to have found at least two lab caches. You had to be on the promotional email lists for geocaching, so that we could email you and say, “Hey, we’ve given you a credit.”

30:03 BR: The next phase… And this is something that I’ve seen on Facebook, and I know others have seen it, is we see examples of people getting them and saying, “Oh, I didn’t even know I… I don’t know how I got it. I didn’t really… I don’t know what I’m gonna do with it. I may or may not want it.” And other people are saying, “Oh my goodness, I’ve been waiting for so long. How do I get one? I never seem to be chosen,” and it feels like it’s not an ideal result. It does allow us to see sort of what’s the response rate if we do random distribution. At some point in August, and I believe it’ll be towards the early end of August, we are going to put out another sign-up sheet. Similar requirements, again, you have to be a premium member, and that’s the premium members are the folks that are paying for the premium membership and they are… In doing so they are helping to support the teams that build these projects. And so of course, as we promised in 2002, or whatever, we are going to give premium members the earliest access to new features and functionality. So that’s why we are giving these credits to premium members. But if as a premium member, if you meet the other qualifications, you will fill out a form and we’re gonna take those forms and we will be giving out X number of credits per week.

31:20 BR: And if you fill out that form, and I don’t know how long we’re gonna leave it open for, but we’re gonna leave it open for a while, if you fill out that form, you will get an Adventure Lab builder credit. So that’s a way of saying, “Hey, if you’re out there and you wanna build an adventure lab, come fill out the form, you’ll get to do it.” And if you’re not a premium member, we would hope that maybe consider becoming a premium member. It’s $30 a year still, we have never raised the price in 18 or so years. We felt like it was a good value then. As we continued to add things to premium membership, hopefully that becomes more accessible and more enticing to people. Premium memberships are the primary way that Geocaching HQ makes money and allows us to pay for employees, pay for our office space which we’re not exactly getting to use as often right now, but really do the kind of work that we wanna do to support the company now and in the future.

32:15 BR: So for those of you premium members out there who wanna build an adventure, your chance is coming. I would encourage you to get out and find at least a few lab caches because that will be part of the requirements. I don’t know if there’s going to be any other requirements, but when the form goes live, we’ll make that perfectly clear. But the end goal is… Adventure Lab is a platform that allows people to create, share and play a different type of adventure and experience in the real world. We’re seeing some really nice adoption by geocachers. A lot of people are having fun with them, and people are creating some really, really cool experiences. Some with bonus caches, some without bonus caches. If you haven’t checked it out, the app is called Adventure Lab, and you can download it on iOS or the Android store.

33:05 CR: We’ve been talking about the Adventure Lab app now for a couple of years now, I’m wondering, has your… Or not just your, does the company’s vision for the Adventure Lab app evolve over time? And I guess one of the things I’m thinking about specifically is you and I have chatted before on the podcast about how much or how little it would be integrated with geocaching.com, or seeing adventures on the Geocaching app, things like that. Has the view of that evolved at all? Has it changed at all or is it pretty much as it has been?

33:44 BR: I think the view continues to remain the same. It’s really just a matter of us going in and doing the work to have the app and the ecosystem match with that view. So I can tell you, we have a lot of things in mind for what we wanna do with adventures, it just takes development time to build it and test it and release it in the right way. And so we have talked about having Adventure Lab caches on the Geocaching map. That is something that I still believe is going to happen, it should happen before the end of the year, I think maybe when we talked last I might have said August, but we’ve had other things come up, and so it might take a little bit longer. And that’s just the normal course of business. I wish we could do everything as quickly as we aspire to do it, but unfortunately, that’s not reality, and it’s just not practical.

34:41 BR: But in terms… For long-term with geocaching, we do see Adventure Lab as a tool-set that geocachers can use to extend the game of geocaching in different ways. We also see opportunities for other communities out there. So if there are people that are kayaking or mountain biking or they’re bird watching or they’re historians, and they see this platform as a way to create content to engage an audience, that’s something where, I think, we would love to have them come and use the platform and play with it. And we may find that maybe there’s somebody who is an expert at a different field that’s not related to geocaching, and you put the Adventure Lab tool-set in their hand and they go build this really cool experience related to the discipline that they’re familiar with. Well, all of a sudden as geocachers, we have access to this new type of experience that we wouldn’t have otherwise had before. So as with geocaching, it’s a platform for creating, sharing and playing outdoor experiences.

35:49 BR: And geocachers have done some incredible things over the years with core geocaching that has helped people to get outside and have super fun experiences. Well, likewise, as we put maybe a more robust tool-set in their hands that provides for multi-media and different kinds of triggers and things like that, well, then the opportunity to create more robust experiences is available and the beneficiaries of that, the people who will benefit are the community members, are the geocachers. So long-term, we think the platform continues to have a lot of promise. We are continuing to keep it integrated with core geocaching because it makes sense to do that. And I know we’re having a lot of fun with it, the players are having a lot of fun with it, the builders are having a lot of fun with it. Like with regular core geocaching, we wanna do more of it. So some of those… The other things we have in mind from for the vision are things that you will see in the not too distant future. We are excited to bring those to the community, and we’re excited to see what people do with them.

36:55 CR: Alright, well, we’ve covered a lot. Is there anything else you wanna get off your chest?

37:01 BR: I guess I would just say, for those of you who I’ve seen at Megas and gigas and at other events, or if you’ve come to visit us at HQ, from the bottom of my heart, we miss you. We miss seeing you in person, we miss getting out on the trail and playing with you. And those times will return at some point, hopefully sooner rather than later. And until then, we hope that you guys are doing your best to stay safe, stay healthy, stay active, and we’ll see you as soon as we possibly can.

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37:36 CR: So there you have it, Bryan Roth, the president and co-founder of Geocaching HQ, talking about a variety of topics. If you have something you would like to hear us cover on the podcast, you can send us an email to podcast@geocaching.com. That is podcast@geocaching.com. We always love to hear your suggestions and your feedback. So until we talk to you again, for me and for Bryan and for everybody at Geocaching HQ, happy caching.

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